Curse

Martin Alvito · Jan 20, 2010, 10:16 AM // 10:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Arching Healer

Fixed it for you.

Sad. You can win with Grenth. You just have to be the better team by a wide margin. Giving up before the match starts doesn't get you wins.

Killed u man · Jan 20, 2010, 10:16 AM // 10:16

Quote:

- Are we set up to be the first to get the next gift that spawns?
- Are we using DPS in the right places (ie: closer to home)?
- Can I use this Hidden Rock/Icicles to keep a runner clean for an extra few seconds?
- Should we just concede this gift and instead worry about moving the next one?
- Can I buy some time to get reinforcements and deny the enemy this gift with a Fort?
- How can I be most productive when I am not carrying a gift?

2 of the 4 spawns have an auto-snare when you pick it up. Tough it requires some luck. (Ice freezes every second, if you don't get hit by the "checker" -the code which checks if you're standing still on ice- you won't get snared standing still on ice.

And what you're describing is exactly my point. mobbing.

It's ALL about the relics. Any person not working on a relic, is a useless person. And all of what you mentioned is stuff that MATTERS.

I'm not arguing that playing good will OBVIOUSLY help you further. But as long as you can't pick up the relic, you won't go anywhere.
There isn't enough snares (esp if you're grenth) and people rezz too fast to "deny" the enemy team getting close to the relic.

If you obs'ed as much as you said you did, you can not deny following statement:

Only 1 in every 50 relics got run "clean". Every single other relic got mobbed at some point in time. (Had atleast 3-4 people fighting for it)

And because that statement is true, following statement is also true:

With more than 3-4 people around the relic, the tema who can constistantly pick up the relic faster will get further, regardless of snares or shutdown. (If you can't pick it up, you can't move it to your base)

And because this statement is true, following statement is also true:

A bot will gain you significant advantage, because it WILL guarantee a significantly higher pick-up rate.

And because that statement is true, following statement is also true:

Bots will gain you a significant advantage in Snowball AT's. So much even that they matter more than skill, or other variables. (Dwayna/Grenth)

And this solely because every relic gets mobbed at some point in time, and the team who picks up faster always comes out as victor...

And observing this only confirms this statement. I've seen 2 botters go all they way to the enemy base, and STEAL a relic only 5 inches away from the Avatar, from 5 people because they managed to pick it up amongst themselves each time the other person got kd'd.

They stole the relic from the enemy base all the way to their base, solely because they could pick up faster. At some point, they defending team was actually spiking their snowballs. (To KD both of them at the same time) And this work, for about 5 seconds. then one of them kd'd the runner again, and they could once again go on their way. (They both used some forts and snowcones, which is how they managed to survived)

Given, around halfway (iceriver), one of them died, and got replaced by someone else.

Point being that as long as you can pick up faster than your opponent, you got a significant advantage...

Martin Alvito · Jan 20, 2010, 10:30 AM // 10:30

@ Fril - I think you have a quality summary of the issues on the table.

@ Borat - The first relic always gets mobbed heavily. After that it varies with the number of fakes and how dominant one side or the other is. A person not on a relic is not necessarily useless; they can at times be more useful than someone defending at a relic.

Any match that is inconclusive tends to degenerate into 2v2s if there are not fakes. Large mobs around relics should be punished with DPS, and the players with DPS skills need to be very cognizant of which fights they should/should not be assisting.

There are more than enough snares to control enemy positioning. 4-5 copies of Icicles and knockdowns can make a large difference if used properly. You can't keep them away forever, but you can keep them away. A good team will make it difficult to cross the map from spawn.

Again, I'm not saying that a bot would be useless. I'm saying that a bot would not be nearly as helpful as you seem to think. Your statement (Bots confer more of an advantage than Dwayna/server) isn't logically true. The fact that a bot would confer an advantage does not imply the degree of advantage conferred. It may be true, but you haven't demonstrated it logically.

Your anecdote is interesting because it quite clearly demonstrates why you are failing. If you have five people at the base, and they are being resisted by two "botters", I have to ask - why did you lose the relic? The four people not carrying the relic should have ensured that the defenders didn't get anywhere near the relic. Your enemies should have been knocked down, had Snow Down The Shirt on them, and been hit with Icicles. If you do that, they can't knock the runner down to take the relic or get into position to capitalize on the knockdown.

The Arching Healer · Jan 20, 2010, 10:39 AM // 10:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

Sad. You can win with Grenth. You just have to be the better team by a wide margin. Giving up before the match starts doesn't get you wins.

Well we won with grenth vs everything except LR.
But Dwayna is still ftw. We played with 2-3 pve'ers who never snowballed before. We had 2 grenths, rest dwayna and we easily won the AT. Ofcourse we ended lucky on #2 in swiss (didnt know it back then) , so we got 3 dwayna in single elims. We even slaughtered LR with 10-4 that AT.

Martin Alvito · Jan 20, 2010, 10:44 AM // 10:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Arching Healer

Well we won with grenth vs everything except LR.

Then you're definitely doing something right. LR didn't lose often with Dwayna.

Killed u man · Jan 20, 2010, 11:11 AM // 11:11

The 2 people vs the 5 didn't pop up out of thin air. They had more ppl there, but they died. The remaining 2 managed to get off a single kd and pick up the relic. From there on, all they had to do was hold on, as they would just pick up once their party member got kd'd.

I'm not saying they COULDN'T have done more. I yell more than enough at my guildies to use SDTS and spamm interrupts. But this doesn't change the fact that 2 ppl managed to outcap 5 ones...

I see your point, but I believe the opposite is true. You believe personal skill and "tactics" can overcome botting, I believe the opposite. So far, my theory stands stronger as reality implies.
I'm getting tired of this "no name calling", because you guys keep asking for "proof" and "examples", but we're not allowed to post proof or examples.

The main 2 guilds in question have been mentioned before, and I've tried my dropping experiment wiht both of them. (To see if they can outpick-up a bot) And they could.

And if you guys want proof, WHAT proof exactly do you want? Do you want a vid of someone picking up a relic I drop, how does that proof anything?
Then I got to proof I'm botting. How do I proof I am botting, aside from making my bot public (Which is the plan?).

I'm really sorry for your you Martin, you seem like a nice guy, but if your guild can out pick-up a bot, then they are botting themselves. There's nothing more to it...

Qaletaqa Hania · Jan 20, 2010, 11:19 AM // 11:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

And because this statement is true, following statement is also true:

A bot will gain you significant advantage, because it WILL guarantee a significantly higher pick-up rate.

Depends on the person competing with a bot, or using one.
If you can pickup something faster then a bot:

Then the player using a bot will not have an advantage.
If you wanna use a bot, then it will give you a disadvantage.

You assume that everyone is worse then a bot, wich is not true

-----

In a way bots make you better, they are unfair but they make a fair player better. You learn to play better from playing against something that is better, I used to play CS alot and when aimbots "took over" I learned to be better and/or outsmart the bots.

I do agree that bots shouldn't be here or in any other game because it is unfair.

Here is an idea, make a bot/macro to counter a person running an interrupt bot. Wich should check if anyone is casting an interrupt, and if someone is using an interrupt then it should cancel the skill that you are using. Wait a minute..... i'm here to play Guild Wars not Bot Wars.

People should not be competing with bots, and therefore they, Anet, should do something about it, or I should say do more to protect the fair players.

Remember when using a bot in GW, it would be like performance-enhancing drugs in any physical sport like cycling, boxing, American Football, etc... when caught using it you will be suspended/banned.

Qaletaqa Hania · Jan 20, 2010, 11:26 AM // 11:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

I'm really sorry for your you Martin, you seem like a nice guy, but if your guild can out pick-up a bot, then they are botting themselves. There's nothing more to it...

Dude, you assume alot of things. I used to outpick people using "pickit" in D2 (Diablo 2). It is possible to be faster then a bot, it's not because you aren't faster then a bot that nobody is.

I can frigin tap the same key with 1 finger 7 times per second and I know people who can do it faster. I play stepmania, I call it DDR for fingers.

Killed u man · Jan 20, 2010, 11:30 AM // 11:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qaletaqa Hania

Depends on the person competing with a bot, or using one.
If you can pickup something faster then a bot:

Then the player using a bot will not have an advantage.
If you wanna use a bot, then it will give you a disadvantage.

You assume that everyone is worse then a bot, wich is not true

-----

In a way bots make you better, they are unfair but they make a fair player better. You learn to play better from playing against something that is better, I used to play CS alot and when aimbots "took over" I learned to be better and/or outsmart the bots.

I do agree that bots shouldn't be here or in any other game because it is unfair.

Here is an idea, make a bot/macro to counter a person running an interrupt bot. Wich should check if anyone is casting an interrupt, and if someone is using an interrupt then it should cancel the skill that you are using. Wait a minute..... i'm here to play Guild Wars not Bot Wars.

People should not be competing with bots, and therefore they, Anet, should do something about it, or I should say do more to protect the fair players.

Remember when using a bot in GW, it would be like performance-enhancing drugs in any physical sport like cycling, boxing, American Football, etc... when caught using it you will be suspended/banned.

I feel like I have to baby-sit this thread with all the amount of untought trough posts. (No offensive)
Luckily for me, I'm willing to do that.

You ASSUME a player CAN outplay a bot. It can't. The intire point of a bot is to PLAY BETTER. I mean, would footballers play with football shoes if it made them worse? No, they wouldn't. They are DESIGNED to increase your play.

With bots, you don't even have a remote chance:

Server Client packet transfer for dummies:

Client sends packet to server to KD runner.
Server KD's runner.
Server sends packet to client runner is KD'd.
Player observers client, and imputs "pick up" key
Client sends pick up packet to server
Server allows client to pick up.

This is pretty much how it works. Now if you could write a script, that would autoreply every packet that read:"Runner is KD'd" with a packet "Pick up relic" it would look like this:

Server KD's runner.
Server sends packet to client runner is KD'd.
-Bot instantly, replies -Within milliseconds *Depends how fast your PC can process it*
Client sends pick ip packet
Server allows client to pick up.

The latter is OBVIOUSLY going to be alot faster. Not only does it take away the need for the player to input any keys, he can also focus on doing other tasks at hand...

EDIT: But if you don't believe me, I am willing to test it. Add me in-game: Borat on Monk
I am kindly willing to do some flag wars in GToB. We keep dropping the flag, and whoever picks it up first gets payed 5 zkeys by the other guy.

Qaletaqa Hania · Jan 20, 2010, 12:28 PM // 12:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

I feel like I have to baby-sit this thread with all the amount of untought trough posts. (No offensive)
Luckily for me, I'm willing to do that.

You ASSUME a player CAN outplay a bot. It can't. The intire point of a bot is to PLAY BETTER. I mean, would footballers play with football shoes if it made them worse? No, they wouldn't. They are DESIGNED to increase your play.

You assume a player can't outplay a bot. The entire point of a bot is to play better? you mean play unfair by automating things.
Also bad point you are making with the football shoes, they are made to increase grip so you wouldn't slip, fall, etc... the fact is that they aren't illegal, and that they are a requirement. I've been in a soccer team, and I forgot to bring my football shoes once and I wasn't allowed on the field with normal running shoes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

With bots, you don't even have a remote chance:

You underestimate people.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

Server Client packet transfer for dummies:

Client sends packet to server to KD runner.
Server KD's runner.
Server sends packet to client runner is KD'd.
Player observers client, and imputs "pick up" key
Client sends pick up packet to server
Server allows client to pick up.

This is pretty much how it works. Now if you could write a script, that would autoreply every packet that read:"Runner is KD'd" with a packet "Pick up relic" it would look like this:

Server KD's runner.
Server sends packet to client runner is KD'd.
-Bot instantly, replies -Within milliseconds *Depends how fast your PC can process it*
Client sends pick ip packet
Server allows client to pick up.

The latter is OBVIOUSLY going to be alot faster. Not only does it take away the need for the player to input any keys, he can also focus on doing other tasks at hand...

I know what packet sending is.

You forgot some variables:

Location, location, location...
Internet connection speed.
Delays.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

EDIT: But if you don't believe me, I am willing to test it. Add me in-game: Borat on Monk
I am kindly willing to do some flag wars in GToB. We keep dropping the flag, and whoever picks it up first gets payed 5 zkeys by the other guy.

I don't believe that everyone is slower then a bot.

I'm not willing to test that because it can get you and me banned. Believe it or not but if you or me would use a bot and one of us accept zkeys, then both of us can get banned, even the one not using a bot.
And i'm 100% sure that I won't risk my account.

And how would you proof it? by using a bot and see if i'm faster? If I would be faster, then how would you know i'm not using a pickup bot? The only way to proof it is if we were sitting next to eachother so we could see the other persons screen and/or check their computer to see if there is a bot active on it. Also we would need to use the exact same computer setup, same lenght of cables, etc... and eliminate any other possible variables.
And even then we could still argue about things that might affect... speed.

I do agree that it does affect many people and that it is a problem and that it should be taken care off.

Divinus Stella · Jan 20, 2010, 01:15 PM // 13:15

All this caring about rollerbeetle races, since when did anyone ever look at the rollerbeetle highscore list and think "wow those guys really race hard, sure must be skilled".

Same goes for snowball matches, its all just some minigame thata small group of people take way too seriously, kinda like playing zelda purely for the fishing.

Botting is a problem in GW, infact recently theres been lots of mods aswel as bots for GvG but i never thought anyone would be complaining about hacks for roller beetle races.

Fril Estelin · Jan 20, 2010, 01:18 PM // 13:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

I see your point, but I believe the opposite is true. You believe personal skill and "tactics" can overcome botting, I believe the opposite. So far, my theory stands stronger as reality implies.
I'm getting tired of this "no name calling", because you guys keep asking for "proof" and "examples", but we're not allowed to post proof or examples.

The actual "reality" you've been exposing so far doesn't mean that your theory stands stronger, as you cannot show us that the people you're talking about are not skilled (and have better tactics for snowball AT) both at RBR and snowball AT. Why can't people be consistently and reliably be as good as we've seen? (I'm not saying that no one is botting but I'm not convinced either that botting is as damaging as you seem to imply) I remember seeing Yuri constantly improving its method for RBR, and maybe as you're saying it was done to improve a bot, but I can't simply believe your word (especially when you're saying things like the last bit in the above, so far all you've done is say "this is what I saw, believe me guys, it was exactly like that, and HENCE it can only be interpreted that way").

Revelations · Jan 20, 2010, 01:24 PM // 13:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qaletaqa Hania

You forgot some variables:

Location, location, location...
Internet connection speed.
Delays.

Except those aren't variables. Anyone with half a brain can tell you that your location and internet speed aren't even slightly variable whether you run a bot or not. You've just discovered constants, buddy, and you may treat them as irrelevant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qaletaqa Hania

I don't believe that everyone is slower then a bot.

Then you believe wrong. FACT: A pickup bot can pick up a present well before you as a player even recognizes it's dropped. Even if you mash your nearest item and spacebar keys the likelihood of your action coinciding with the millisecond or two it takes the opposing bot to process is so slim as to be negligible. The difference between your ping and your oppositions is something of a deciding factor, but for all theorycrafting purposes it should be assumed that the two are equal.

I don't believe that most of the RBR high scorers use bots (snowball is a different story in some cases), but denying the existence, and the capability of these things is just plain RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing stupid.

Qaletaqa Hania · Jan 20, 2010, 02:27 PM // 14:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Revelations

Except those aren't variables. Anyone with half a brain can tell you that your location and internet speed aren't even slightly variable whether you run a bot or not. You've just discovered constants, buddy, and you may treat them as irrelevant.

Lol, those aren't variables?

We all live in the same place with the same connection speed?
Your internet connection speed doesn't differ from mine?
Your internet connection speed is always the same?
Your ping doesn't change?
If I live in Europe and you live in Asia and we connect to the same server it won't make a difference in how fast we recieve packets?
If we are sending packets it won't make a difference on when the packet arrives depending on where we live?

If those were constants:

Everyone would have the same amount of lag.
Disconnect on the exact same moment.
We would all have the exact same ping.

My physical and mental state even matter if you wanna go extreme. And thats a variable because nobody has the exact same physical and mental state.

They are not irrelevant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Revelations

Then you believe wrong. FACT: A pickup bot can pick up a present well before you as a player even recognizes it's dropped. Even if you mash your nearest item and spacebar keys the likelihood of your action coinciding with the millisecond or two it takes the opposing bot to process is so slim as to be negligible. The difference between your ping and your oppositions is something of a deciding factor, but for all theorycrafting purposes it should be assumed that the two are equal.

You can't proof to me that what I believe is wrong just as I can't proof to you that you are wrong.

And for accurate theorycrafting purposes you should assume that they are not equal because it "IS something of a DECIDING factor".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Revelations

I don't believe that most of the RBR high scorers use bots (snowball is a different story in some cases), but denying the existence, and the capability of these things is just plain RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing stupid.

Lol, where did I deny the existence and capability that they don't exist?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qaletaqa Hania

I do agree that bots shouldn't be here or in any other game because it is unfair.

That was me acknowledging that they do exist.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qaletaqa Hania

I do agree that it does affect many people and that it is a problem and that it should be taken care off.

And that's me acknowledging the capability.

I just say it doesn't affect everyone, and that some people are indeed faster than bots.

Killed u man · Jan 20, 2010, 02:52 PM // 14:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qaletaqa Hania

I just say it doesn't affect everyone, and that some people are indeed faster than bots.

You're ignorant, I'm sorry, but you are...

Worst thing is, you're one of those ignorant people, who don't even want to be thaught. I'm willing to PROOVE to you you're not better than a bot, nor is anyone, but then you're crawling back into your cave under the excuse of "Anet will ban me if I team up with you".

Go play some more guild wars from you batcave, sir. Im tired of arguing with "dumb" people.

Revelations · Jan 20, 2010, 03:00 PM // 15:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qaletaqa Hania

Lol, those aren't variables?

We all live in the same place with the same connection speed?
Your internet connection speed doesn't differ from mine?
Your internet connection speed is always the same?
Your ping doesn't change?
If I live in Europe and you live in Asia and we connect to the same server it won't make a difference in how fast we recieve packets?
If we are sending packets it won't make a difference on when the packet arrives depending on where we live?

If those were constants:

Everyone would have the same amount of lag.
Disconnect on the exact same moment.
We would all have the exact same ping.

Except you originally quoted your 'variables' in reply to Borat stating that running a bot is faster than not running one for menial activities like picking presents up. No one else's location or ping has any relevance to you running a bot or not. Given the context that you originally quoted, those factors were constant, you can't just invent a new situation now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qaletaqa Hania

You can't proof to me that what I believe is wrong just as I can't proof to you that you are wrong.

Just throwing around some really basic numbers here, but how fast do you think you can react to seeing a present on the ground? 250ms is a pretty average human reaction time. Factor in the delay in actually pressing the buttons and you're looking at a good 300ms or so from the time the present drops until you pick it up. Bots don't have reflexes buddy. I could create some basic pseudocode for a simple pickup bot, and I would imagine that on most modern PCs you're looking at perhaps 5ms processing time, perhaps as much as 10ms if you really wanted to be pedantic. Draw your own conclusion.

How many times do you think you can mash a button or two in one second? Without rebinding a bunch of keys to target nearest item and execute action, you're looking at probably 8 hits per second, and that's if you're a pretty twitchy RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO. So even if you are mashing on those buttons, on average you're hitting them once every 125ms. The likelihood of one of those keypresses landing within that 5-10ms window (at most) that a bot requires to operate is slim at best.

You may be fast, but don't make the mistake of thinking you're faster than a bot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qaletaqa Hania

And for accurate theorycrafting purposes you should assume that they are not equal because it "IS something of a DECIDING factor".

Your argument is that some humans are faster than bots. You only want one independent variable for this purpose - namely whether a given person is running a bot, or they are not. For this purpose you simply assume that your own ping differs not, whether you are running a bot or you aren't. Comparing two different people's connections was a sidetrack from that, in an attempt to point out that one persons ping advantage may be enough to beat another person's bot. It is a deciding factor - just in a more advanced and completely different situation. Nice try though.

The final paragraph of my initial post was not aimed at you directly, it was aimed at (quite obviously) the people who were disputing the existence of such bots.

Coast · Jan 20, 2010, 03:06 PM // 15:06

Miss Who remembers Xi?[dth] nex that is permabanned for:
- rbr cheating
-being lame with other peoples property
-playing rr for commandertitle 24/7 (even when he was in the shower and sleeping and i never knew that u can at same time take a shower/drive a car and play gw at same time)
- and some guy (r11skillthing) from THAT guild who told me this when I was doing nothing in id 1 ha when I asked what the person got banned for (summed up above)

I'll leave it to the hard boys now!!!!

Kattar · Jan 20, 2010, 03:08 PM // 15:08

Keep it civil, folks. Truthfully there's not much reason for me to allow this thread to go much further, since it's just Killed arguing with everyone.

Don't give me another reason to delete all this.

Silmar Alech · Jan 20, 2010, 03:32 PM // 15:32

I have 2 suggestions on how you can prove your points.

- @killed u man: get that bot, buy a new proph account, bot it to the top 100 in the rbr on the upcoming event. Show entry in ladder. Give the greased lightning to player #101 on the ladder.
- @Martin Alvito: get a webcam and broadcast/youtube upload your rbr sessions from the upcoming event with your keyboard and monitor visible.

Killed u man · Jan 20, 2010, 03:47 PM // 15:47

I am not in possession of the RBR bot, otherwise I would have just made it public along with this thread.